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 ITT: Ninja discussion

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Szenkar
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PostSubject: ITT: Ninja discussion   Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:58 am

I'm going to start this thread with this:



Does anyone else feel like ninjas are too powerful for their own good? They have amazing melee damage, their defense isn't all that bad, their agility is sky-high, and their wisdom isn't all that half-bad either, anymore. This is the kind of physical strength I would expect to see out of a Dark Knight or Gladiator class, not a Ninja class (both of which don't even come close to the Ninja's attack power).

I added my 15 bonus points into strength, since agility obviously wasn't necessary - having more attack was just ultimately better than 15 extra agility, since the character already has plenty.
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PostSubject: Re: ITT: Ninja discussion   Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:01 pm

You're getting pretty substantial bonuses from your gear, and minus the 15 extra points out of the ring the Ninja's base stats look way more acceptable. Still, their strength is pretty high considering their agility is so huge. At level 99 they're right between Dragoon and Dark Knight, but given the nature of the class I would expect their strength to be much lower to compensate for how large their agility is. In any case, most of that strength is probably coming from the dual-equipped Godhands, since I don't remember off the top of my head what the Adamant robe's strength bonus is. And unless you're getting another huge strength buff from Hood, that leaves a considerable portion to the knuckles.

But anyway, yeah. Ninja's base strength shouldn't be way better than a Dragoon if it's also way faster. It's barely weaker than a Dark Knight and only slightly less capable of taking damage, not that it matters since it's going to kill everything too quickly to get hit anyway. The only noteworthy drawback I see is a considerably smaller HP pool.

None of this even touches on how OP'd Throw/Dart/Whatever is. Or was, since I haven't examined it since it was 'nerfed'.
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PostSubject: Re: ITT: Ninja discussion   Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:10 pm

Here are my ninja's stats without any gear:



Here's an overall analysis of the gear:

- Each Godhand has 20 attack. Each one also adds 15 strength, 10 agility and 10 will; since there are two, that's an additional 30 strength, 20 agility and 20 will.
- The Hood has 30 def and 5 mdef, and gives 2 strength, 20 agility (!), 2 wisdom and 4 will. It also subtracts 5 vitality.
- Adamant Armor has 48 def and 20 mdef, and gives 7 strength, 10 vitality, 7 wisdom and 7 will.
- The Strength Ring, of course, gives 3 strength.

Overall, in the gear bonuses, that's an extra +42 strength, +40 agility, a hefty amount of will that a Ninja will never use (+30 or so), +10 vitality and +9 wisdom. I should do an analysis on other classes' gear bonuses too, though, to see how they compare to the bonuses here.

Since Dart works from the back row now without lessening the damage, you can be guaranteed to have back row 9999s, especially if you have an LK or AC cast Berserk on you.
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PostSubject: Re: ITT: Ninja discussion   Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:12 pm

you also left off the theif glove, Instead leaveing the str ring on. The glove although giving -5 vit, add another +15 agi, which would take that addition to agi to +55, which is obviously even more insane. And as for dart, even with the recent nerf, it still regularily hits 8K+ even with just Fumas, not even ninja stars. Id take screenshots but feeling lazy about it atm <.< lol.
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PostSubject: Re: ITT: Ninja discussion   Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:37 pm

That's bizarre, Szenkar. How old is that ninja? You clearly have more base points than the one I made as a demo.
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PostSubject: Re: ITT: Ninja discussion   Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:56 pm

King Flapjack wrote:
That's bizarre, Szenkar. How old is that ninja? You clearly have more base points than the one I made as a demo.
It's only a few weeks old.
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PostSubject: Re: ITT: Ninja discussion   Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:15 am




my 99 ninja stats and equips, with all 15 points into Agi and the theif glove on~ almost hitting 200 agi as you can see.
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PostSubject: Re: ITT: Ninja discussion   Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:35 am

on another note, my base stats all have 1 more then the base 99 Dolph posted, except Agi of course that has 16 more, think I found why.



As you can see, it says I have .9999 in all the other stats, along with 15.9903 agi. We think somehow BYOND is rounding these up so that it is actually possible to go over the 15 stat point limit. Thought I should post this though.


Last edited by Shiek on Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:08 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : blah typo x2 >.<)
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PostSubject: Re: ITT: Ninja discussion   Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:21 pm

Bump time.

Someone suggested that Ninjas just not be able to equip the Godhand. That'd probably be a relatively easy fix. But even wearing the Masamune and Crystal Katana, this is still way too ridiculously strong:



Here's his equipment and its stats.
Masamune (+5 Strength, +5 Vitality, +5 Wisdom; 45 Attack)
Crystal Katana (+3 Strength, +3 Agility, +6 Vitality, +3 Wisdom, +4 Will; 45 Attack)
Hood (+2 Strength, +20 Agility, -5 Vitality, +2 Wisdom, +4 Will; 30 Def/5 Mdef)
Adamant Armor (+7 Strength, +10 Vitality, +7 Wisdom, +7 Will; 48 Def/20 Mdef)
Thief Glove (+15 Agility, -5 Vitality; 8 Def/6 Mdef)

Overall bonuses for the Ninja:
+17 Strength, +38 Agility, +11 Vitality, +17 Wisdom, +15 Will


For comparison, here's my Dark Knight. I built him with +10 Strength and +5 Agility.



He's wielding...
Ragnarok (+4 Strength, +4 Agility, +4 Vitality, +4 Wisdom; 80 attack)
Chaos Shield (+5 Strength, -2 Agility; 16 Def/4 Mdef)
Adamant Helm (+3 Strength, +3 Agility, +3 Vitality, +3 Wisdom, +3 Will; 15 Def/10 Mdef)
Adamant Armor (+7 Strength, +10 Vitality, +7 Wisdom, +7 Will; 48 Def/20 Mdef)
Strength Ring (+3 Strength)

(Chaos Armor is weaker in every area except Mdef, compared to Adamant Armor)

Overall bonuses for the Dark Knight:
+22 Strength, +5 Agility, +17 Vitality, +14 Wisdom, +10 Will

Looking at the two characters in comparison is actually pretty horrifying to me. The Ninja far outclasses the Dark Knight in attack and agility (not by strength, but even then, the strength of the DK is not that much higher than the Ninja in this case), and its defense isn't that much worse than the Dark Knight's, either.

Anyone else want to provide more input/opinions?
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PostSubject: Re: ITT: Ninja discussion   Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:52 am

So, I got on today and Otacon asks me if Ninja got a rebalance. I ask him whats wrong. He tells me theres a Ninja with 197 agility. I lol, asking for proof. He gives it to me. Said Ninja claims to have the same equipment as Shiek, just so you know.



So... does anyone have any idea what she did to get it even higher? She said its an old file, but stats are reset at log in, right?

EDIT: I talked with Haruhi, the ninja. She said she has two godhands, Ninja Hood, Addy armor, and Thief Glove. she has 29 bonus stats, but that should lead to 198 agi, right? And dont the first 15 count only?
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PostSubject: Re: ITT: Ninja discussion   Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:11 am

That's wacky.

You'd figure with agility that high, her ninja would have at least 3 or 4 more attack and defense multipliers on top of mine, but it doesn't.

Edit - Actually, her defense is quite a lot higher, but not her attack. what's going on?


Last edited by Szenkar on Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:13 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : hnnngh)
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PostSubject: Re: ITT: Ninja discussion   Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:23 pm

I looked on Gamefaqs and found that Edge from FF4 would have max 99 in str, agi, and stam and 94 Int and 50 Spirit.
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PostSubject: Re: ITT: Ninja discussion   Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:32 pm

that really doesnt help us with the way FFL is coded pretzel
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PostSubject: Re: ITT: Ninja discussion   Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:12 am

Comparing Ninjas to DKs is pretty pointless, IMO. Ninjas deal most of their damage with throw anyways, while the DK gets a shield instead of weapon from Gilgamesh. Factor in the low damage of Katanas, compared to other weapons, and yeah, the ninja's gimmick is throw, enough said, really. Oh, and Darkwave. Unless enemies resist dark, you're never using the normal attack command, so you can't accurately compare them.

That said, ninjas are pretty craptastic early on and by all means let them 9999 with ninja stars later to reward their perseverence. Each ninja star costs money anyways so you'll eventually run out if you're stupid with how you use them.

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PostSubject: Re: ITT: Ninja discussion   Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:28 am

My solo Dark Knight NEVER used DarkWave. It's not that much stronger than a regular attack, and when split, is useless. It's no longer worth the hp cost, and its far more effecient to one shot enemies with a regular attack than spend 2-3 turns DWaving them all.
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PostSubject: Re: ITT: Ninja discussion   Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:19 pm

Ranylyn wrote:
Comparing Ninjas to DKs is pretty pointless, IMO. Ninjas deal most of their damage with throw anyways, while the DK gets a shield instead of weapon from Gilgamesh. Factor in the low damage of Katanas, compared to other weapons, and yeah, the ninja's gimmick is throw, enough said, really. Oh, and Darkwave. Unless enemies resist dark, you're never using the normal attack command, so you can't accurately compare them.

That said, ninjas are pretty craptastic early on and by all means let them 9999 with ninja stars later to reward their perseverence. Each ninja star costs money anyways so you'll eventually run out if you're stupid with how you use them.

Have you even played both a Ninja and a Dark Knight?

The reason I ask is because your "facts" are wrong. Ninjas deal tons of damage with throw, yeah, but they also deal more melee damage than Dark Knights do, since their Attack is higher. Katanas do not have "low damage"; the best two katanas combined outclass Ragnarok and Excalibur II in terms of attack. Ninjas consistently outdamage many (not all) classes throughout the entire game, including Dark Knights. That is to say, Ninjas are not craptastic early on. Darkwave sucks, plain and simple - I never use it on my Dark Knight because it's useless, except on groups of Goblins very early on in the game.

At any rate, Ninjas can make more money way more quickly than any other class, so the fact that darts cost money (relatively insignificant amounts) is pretty much irrelevant. You won't have that much money for the entire game, but if you don't play like an idiot, you won't even need darts until you get to the moon. Attack is more than sufficient to smack anything around. People say Demon Wall is difficult, but that's because they don't equip claws before they fight it -- any decent player will start to use claws in the underworld, since they are better than Katanas. I already discussed how overpowered the Godhands are.

A Ninja should not be more powerful than a Dark Knight (I could go into other classes, too, but that would be silly and drawn out) and have comparable defense as well, so you're sort of missing the point of this thread's existence.
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PostSubject: Re: ITT: Ninja discussion   Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:49 pm

I have said this many times before, Ninjas right now are too strong. they are meant to be for speed not power.
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PostSubject: Re: ITT: Ninja discussion   Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:53 pm

Szenkar wrote:
Have you even played both a Ninja and a Dark Knight?

Pre-rebalance for both, post rebalance for a ninja. I beat Archimus with a Dark Knight, never passed Toroia with a ninja. Especially post-rebalance, a ninja lands a "miss" 80% of the time (yes, their attack power is THAT LOW. I was killed by an imp!) before like level 5

Quote :
The reason I ask is because your "facts" are wrong. Ninjas deal tons of damage with throw, yeah, but they also deal more melee damage than Dark Knights do, since their Attack is higher. Katanas do not have "low damage"; the best two katanas combined outclass Ragnarok and Excalibur II in terms of attack. Ninjas consistently outdamage many (not all) classes throughout the entire game, including Dark Knights. That is to say, Ninjas are not craptastic early on.

Then clearly they've been buffed since I last played one. They were quite literally unplayable for awhile. It also doesn't help that you find numbers like 8 attack per Middle vs 20 attack with the Bronze.

Don't get me wrong, once they learn some ninjutsu, they can tackle the middle parts very well, with multitarget and purchaseable shuriken. Early on, though, when Shuriken are uncommon, no stat rings, and no spells... like I said, unless they got a buff since I last played one... (then again, the early game was also nerfed since the rebalance too. But if you mean to tell me that a level 13 solo ninja can easily best 4 water Sahagins, I'm breaking out the BS Bomb.

Quote :
Darkwave sucks, plain and simple - I never use it on my Dark Knight because it's useless, except on groups of Goblins very early on in the game.

I haven't played a DK lately, but my swordmaster basically spams it. SM damage is far superior to the DK, sure, but it's also far squishier and even then it's worth it. Against 3 enemies, I'd rather 2 waves than 3 normal attacks.

Quote :
At any rate, Ninjas can make more money way more quickly than any other class,

I'm assuming you refer to their ability to steal. This is where I have an issue with their relatively low defense. A turn spent stealing = a turn spent taking damage. I'm a very conservative gamer, and wasting turns and taking damage simply doesn't fly well with me unless I have regen or some method of free healing (prayer, etc.)

"But you steal potions!" A very valid point. Again, though, a party will expect you to attack, and when solo, stealing just means the enemy isn't dying.

HOWEVER! I've heard that you can steal items like pink tails with relative ease compared to hunting for drops. This is where it shines, I'll agree. Problem is, I've never been able to suck it up to that point in time.

Quote :
so the fact that darts cost money (relatively insignificant amounts) is pretty much irrelevant. You won't have that much money for the entire game, but if you don't play like an idiot, you won't even need darts until you get to the moon. Attack is more than sufficient to smack anything around. People say Demon Wall is difficult, but that's because they don't equip claws before they fight it -- any decent player will start to use claws in the underworld, since they are better than Katanas. I already discussed how overpowered the Godhands are.

See, as an FF4 player since the SNES era, this is where I get confused. I know claws do blunt damage, making them amazing against the demon wall. Problem is, Monks used to do 99% of their damage on strength alone and thus claws were basically just tacked-on elements and ailments. This made them pointless on Edge as Katanas were better. Thus, when buying weapons for ninjas, I tend to not even really LOOK at claws....

Quote :
A Ninja should not be more powerful than a Dark Knight (I could go into other classes, too, but that would be silly and drawn out) and have comparable defense as well, so you're sort of missing the point of this thread's existence.

Well, I do agree, and given what's been brought forward, I get the point now.


I'm going to volunteer to test ninjas. As a "ninja hater" (I don't really hate them, but back when they were second rate, the number of people praising them as the best for image + throw was stupidly high) who better to compare to other classes? I'm going to start tonight and hope the Snowman hasn't been removed, I hate grinding ninjas and getting that bump in level would help.


Edit: First battle: Ninja vs Helldiver!

Helldiver: Hits for 9
Ninja: *miss*
Helldiver: hits for 31
Ninja: Hits for 16
Helldiver: Hits for 31
Ninja: Hits for 22

Ninja: 22/93 HP
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PostSubject: Re: ITT: Ninja discussion   Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:42 am

Ranylyn:

From your post, you basically told me that you haven't played a ninja recently. I don't mean to be a big jerk because I prefer to be nice, but if you haven't even played the class recently, your input is really quite useless to this discussion, know what I mean? I'm not going to offer a point-by-point rebuttal for that reason.

After you finish playing the class, you can feel more than welcome to post input. I played the ninja to test how powerful it was after Shiek and Naru mentioned to me that it was overpowered, and they were both right.
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PostSubject: Re: ITT: Ninja discussion   Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:40 am

I'm playing one now myself. Dead 4 times by level 5. Starting off it was complete garbage and at level 6 I made a WK to multikey with just to keep it alive. If nothing else, it's offense is now good, by Damcyan. Hell, with any luck, 2 long swords (14 attack = 28) will possibly outdamage most other classes until Fabul (22 attack dark/knightsword)

Toughing it out till Ordeals may be tough, but I anticipate knowing ninjutsu by then and things will become absurdly easy for awhile. it's just that startng bump that's quite intolerable, because I'm sorry, I refuse to use 2 Cure1 potions against a single float eye.
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PostSubject: Re: ITT: Ninja discussion   Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:04 pm

I also have a ninja and I agree that they are OP'd (or atleast were when I played one this wipe).

Doing 9999 damage every throw with such high agility was totally broken.

Here are my ninja's stats with equipment (no god hands).


NINJA STATS AFTER NERF



Ninja was DEFINATELY nerfed hard.
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PostSubject: Re: ITT: Ninja discussion   Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:37 am

I'm about giving up on my Ninja run. Ninja + WK duo is STILL losing to Antlion.

Seriously, I just don't have the patience for this. They're terrible early game. Can't survive anything without a tank and even with a back row WK tanking, the offense is too low to kill things before the WK dies (complete with Mana Spring, Protect, and Cure Magic) without resorting to potion spammage.

If anything, I'm really starting to feel that the issue is equipment. Comparing the Ninja to Dark Knights? I've never got the crystal sword, but the Ragnarok is the best the DK has access to that I've ever had. As said before, even without the godhands, the giggles + crystal katanas are too strong. Realistically, something like the dark knight, you'd expect some sort of powerful deathbringer blade and not being stuck with the sword that swordmasters only use because they can't get 2 Gilgamesh weapons, you know?

It seems to me that the issue is twofold:


1) The gear isn't Balanced (Again, obvious solution is remove godhands, but I'm also curious about the stats on the hood. I was partied with a ninja who wore it at Archi and took less damage from Starfall than those of us with Glass Helms.)

2) Designated Melee DPS classes that don't already outperform the ninja as much as they should need a buff (Most notably the DK as has already been mentioned. Lack of a Gilgamesh weapon hurts their offense (though the chaos armor is cherished at Archimus, it really serves no pracitcal use elsewhere) I mean, from what I've seen, a paladin can realistically outdamage a DK (Excalibur 2 + holy proc vs Ragnarok) with normal attacks, and if Dwave is as nerfed as people claim... (again, SM offense is so high I haven't been paying attention)


I also have another suggestion: Jack up the cost of ninja stars. No really. Non ninjas complain about their constant 9999 spam? Simply make those 9999s less convenient. Or perhaps put a damage cap of 7000-8000 on Ninjas and make the 9999 ones (The spoon/knife) available as a steal-only? Either way, it doesn't matter to me, I'm more concerned about their normal attack outshining what the DK has to offer.
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PostSubject: Re: ITT: Ninja discussion   Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:23 pm

Ninja's nerf wasn't nearly as bad as it could've been.

Hood and Thief Glove give less agility. Ninjas can no longer equip Godhands, and their stat gains were dropped just a little bit. 8000+ damage from the back row isn't anything to sneeze at.

Now Ninjas have to rely a little more on parties like most other classes do. That's a bit more fair, at least. You're having a lot of trouble in your duo run because your partner character sucks, and I'll get to that a little later.

The Dark Knight is fine how it is, except for Dark Wave. It has good melee damage and good defensive capabilities, like it should -- but a Ninja shouldn't have had the abilities of a Dark Knight and more. I never use the Chaos Armor -- I always have the Adamant Armor by that point, and it's really not useful against Archimus at all. Anyway, classes that should probably be looked at for rebalancing next are the Swordmaster and White Knight (you don't need a wall in this game, there's no reason to have one, especially when it's just a less-versatile Paladin).

Swordmaster's effects from their special attacks seldom hit, which makes many of the attacks useless. Swordmaster's strength is low, and the ability to equip two swords (Excalibur II + Ragnarok) was supposed to make up for it... but it doesn't. When CIB was on a few weeks ago, he made the suggestion of changing the Swordmaster's stat gains (to make them less sucky), and giving them the option of wielding two ninja swords, or one sword/magic knight sword and a shield.

I know that Sigma disagrees with me on this and Andrew probably does too, but I really feel like the White Knight is a completely useless class. Yes, it plays differently from every other class in the game, but that doesn't mean it's actually good. When you take into account that a current White Knight can't even tank Antlion for one character (Cover), what do you think would happen when they try tanking Antlion for a full party (CoverAll, which has never worked)? The White Knight would die. A lot. CoverAll was a nice idea and it would make the White Knight a little more unique, but the game isn't difficult enough to warrant having one character take all the damage. Paladins are better than White Knights in every way except Mana Spring, but the Paladin has more MP to make up for not having it. And it can actually do some damage.

I went off-topic here, but there's nothing left to discuss about ninjas.
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PostSubject: Re: ITT: Ninja discussion   Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:40 am

My current problem with this game is that death rarely ever works, it's EXTREMELY inaccurate (it could also possibly apply to other status ailments that I haven't tested yet but definately not to poison as it always seems to work with me when I use bio).
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