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lordgalbalan
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PostSubject: Suggestion: mod elections   Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:21 pm

I really do think they would work. And they would be entertaining. That's all.
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PostSubject: Re: Suggestion: mod elections   Mon Sep 20, 2010 1:35 am

Don't count on this becoming part of the game.
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lordgalbalan
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PostSubject: Re: Suggestion: mod elections   Mon Sep 20, 2010 2:12 am

Why not?

I was a part of a group that tried to set something up like this on GraalOnline years back. Never succeeded. I guess voter fraud would be a key issue. However, a number of steps could be taken to mitigate it

  • a set of controlling mods would have power to fire. This would be a trusted group known for their fairness.
  • the key function of the elected mods would be to challenge the actions of the appointed mods. In this sense, the elected mods would behave as public defenders.


That's the problem: this game is lacking a justice system.

One more suggestion: mod powers could themselves be voted on. Might as well have a constitution of agreed upon mod powers.
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PostSubject: Re: Suggestion: mod elections   Mon Sep 20, 2010 3:57 pm

1: Ideas like this never end up working out, there will always be a way to break the system.
2: We have a fully capible Staff with someone on at all hours of the day to handle any arising problems.
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lordgalbalan
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PostSubject: Re: Suggestion: mod elections   Mon Sep 20, 2010 4:13 pm

Shiek wrote:
1: Ideas like this never end up working out, there will always be a way to break the system.
2: We have a fully capible Staff with someone on at all hours of the day to handle any arising problems.

Oh really? Why don't you take a poll? (or are you afraid to?)

Your opinion should be irrelevant to this discussion, because it's a case of the fox guarding the hen house.
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CIB
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PostSubject: Re: Suggestion: mod elections   Mon Sep 20, 2010 4:51 pm

What?

1. FFL is a dictatorship.
2. That won't change.

I don't like it either, but it's the way it is. You'll have to steal the source, bribe the BYOND guys and find a way to get all the community to your server to change that. Good luck.
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PostSubject: Re: Suggestion: mod elections   Mon Sep 20, 2010 4:59 pm

We pick our staff by observing the players; when we feel that they meet our requirements for becoming a moderator (these requirements are not published because we want players who really are like "that", and not just act like that because they know the requirements), then we will inform them of our interests in them.

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PostSubject: Re: Suggestion: mod elections   Mon Sep 20, 2010 5:18 pm

I thought the only requirement was "Andrew likes them"?
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PostSubject: Re: Suggestion: mod elections   Mon Sep 20, 2010 5:19 pm

CIB wrote:
I thought the only requirement was "Andrew likes them"?
I suppose he "likes" them when they meet those requirements?

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PostSubject: Re: Suggestion: mod elections   Mon Sep 20, 2010 5:20 pm

Cosmos.
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PostSubject: Re: Suggestion: mod elections   Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:12 pm

Shouldn't this be in suggestions? Just wondering, Anyway

Okay so let me get this straight. With the 6 mods we already have, plus the Devs, GMs, and Admins, you think we should have Mod elections?

I just wanna know, do you want them for the better of the game or for yourself, because as I'm seeing you just want it for yourself.

Look bro, Nielz and Sheik are right. We have staff on at every hour of the day AND the staff are chosen by how they abide by the requirements that the current staff have set.

Look man, If you want to get Mod powers through "elections" I really hope you have a good case or otherwise, it's gonna stay the same like it should be. Because honestly FFL shouldn't have a little election poll for certain people becoming staff because that just breaks a lot of stuff.

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lordgalbalan
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PostSubject: Re: Suggestion: mod elections   Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:56 pm

I have no interest in becoming a mod. Absolutely none, ever.

What I have an interest in is seeing these kinds of games become more fair. As it is, if you're a liberal you get the shaft in this game and that's the honest truth. If you're a conservative you are more likely not to question the decisions and behavior of the mods due to natural conservative inclination to obey authority. (see Eight Ways to Run the Country by Brian P. Mitchell)

There are several mods which are lightning rod for criticism, repeatedly showing up in complaints. Dolph is one of these, and I personally observe that Sigma uses his opinion of what does and does not belong in w-say with the force of law. (thank to them, one of my keys is in jail and mute). Sigma in particular seems to believe that discussions about game content are controversial and reserved only for the suggestion box. For arguing with him about his argument with another player (over that same topic), I was told by him to find another game. Then I was muted.

I tried to whisper to another mod to review the case, lift the mute. Couldn't do that because I was muted. So then I tried to get Dolph's attention by running back and forth over his sprite. I got jailed for that.

So maybe this forum is the court of last resort. If so then that fact should be stated in the FAQ. But my main point is this: human judgment is flawed. I study socionics, which says in no uncertain terms that be smart in one areas means to be if not totally dumb, then certainly comparably incompetent in another. The more opinions you get, the more likely you are to come to an optimal conclusion in a majority of cases. Representative democracy was developed for the purpose of allowing people to judge the fitness of the the powerful for their attendant powers. In a democratically elected mod group, there might be a Dolph, there wouldn't be a Sigma. Of course there are people who would just try to get revenge on mods for just performing to the standards of the admins. Those people are easy to spot. People who are simply intolerant can be difficult to spot due to mechanisms of projection, and that allows them to lead people astray. That's why character is important. Dolph's character could use a little work, Sigma... is a regular Joseph McCarthy. I think Dolph just wants to make the game enjoyable for as many people as possible... I think Sigma just wants the game to be enjoyable for him and I suspect that for him being a mod is a part of the fun.

Maybe comparing Sigma to Joseph McCarthy isn't the right approach. But I do believe that Sigma should seek professional help. Antipsychotics can be helpful in controlling reaction to disagreements. In any case, until he does so I recommend that he be removed from moderation.

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PostSubject: Re: Suggestion: mod elections   Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:39 am

I knew sooner or later you'd come out as to why the subject was started, your right you don't want power you want people to lose the position because you messed up.

And If I read that right you got muted for starting contreversial topics in Wsay? Read the MotD when the game opens. Its not there for show its there to make sure you don't do something dumb. But obviously he who studies the "corruptness" of people doesn't do the most important thing in the whole world:

READ THE RULES!

Thats all I can say bro. Maybe next time you'll pay attention to things.
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lordgalbalan
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PostSubject: Re: Suggestion: mod elections   Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:05 am

Ducky you've made your argument. It's not for you or me to decide but for the admins to.

But arbitrary definitions make for poor rules.

It's not that I was banned that I brought this up. It was that there were people of poor character who implemented the ban. A person of good character would not have agreed with the ban because it was unfair.
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PostSubject: Re: Suggestion: mod elections   Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:47 am

Your argumentation is irritating, and frankly, I think you're the kind of guy who gives the rational style of discussion a bad name. None of the things you said add any value to the discussion, and since you don't seem to understand what I said, I will repeat it.

FFL is a dictatorship. It only allows those people who get along with the current community. New ideas, incompatible mentalities, will be largely ignored, or, if getting to a point where they become annoying to regular members, punished.

Whether you or I like that is beside the point. Your rants will not get you anywhere, and even if you did make a good point, the people who are in charge wouldn't care. This is one of the two dead-ends of FFL which will make it impossible for it to ever get beyond the point of "small fangame", the other one being that it is based on BYOND.

If you're rooting for a community that allows for more growth, go somewhere else. There are plenty of game projects, specifically those not on BYOND, that have serious potential and that welcome new people who can contribute. It's what many people who think like you do. Putting energy into this is just pointless.
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PostSubject: Re: Suggestion: mod elections   Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:02 pm

lordgalbalan, I suggest you go out into the real world if you want to do democracy. This a game, it does not need democracy. It only needs a handful of watchful eyes (mods, GMs, admins) to keep the troublemakers out. FFL does this just fine and more than 90% of the community has no problems at all with the way peace is being kept or enforced. If a player a day comes in and whines about the way we work, that's fine with us, but we won't give in to them. We have an abundance of other loyal players.
FFL has one of the most peaceful - if not the most peaceful - communities on BYOND.
Thank you.

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lordgalbalan
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PostSubject: Re: Suggestion: mod elections   Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:26 pm

Nielz wrote:
lordgalbalan, I suggest you go out into the real world if you want to do democracy. This a game, it does not need democracy. It only needs a handful of watchful eyes (mods, GMs, admins) to keep the troublemakers out. FFL does this just fine and more than 90% of the community has no problems at all with the way peace is being kept or enforced. If a player a day comes in and whines about the way we work, that's fine with us, but we won't give in to them. We have an abundance of other loyal players.
FFL has one of the most peaceful - if not the most peaceful - communities on BYOND.
Thank you.

You are blind. <_< There's a pall of fear in that game like you would not believe. The only reason 90% of players play your game at all is because it's an illegal ripoff of FFIV and you're the only guys who dare host it. SE is one of the most zealous copyright guardians in the biz, and probably the only reasons you guys are still operating is 1) you appear to be based in Europe, and 2) you are, like CIB argues, insignificant. And I suppose with that attitude, your player base won't advance beyond what it is right now, because every other player feels like the admins have it in for them, and probably then some.
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PostSubject: Re: Suggestion: mod elections   Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:42 pm

lordgalbalan wrote:
Nielz wrote:
lordgalbalan, I suggest you go out into the real world if you want to do democracy. This a game, it does not need democracy. It only needs a handful of watchful eyes (mods, GMs, admins) to keep the troublemakers out. FFL does this just fine and more than 90% of the community has no problems at all with the way peace is being kept or enforced. If a player a day comes in and whines about the way we work, that's fine with us, but we won't give in to them. We have an abundance of other loyal players.
FFL has one of the most peaceful - if not the most peaceful - communities on BYOND.
Thank you.

You are blind. <_< There's a pall of fear in that game like you would not believe. The only reason 90% of players play your game at all is because it's an illegal ripoff of FFIV and you're the only guys who dare host it. SE is one of the most zealous copyright guardians in the biz, and probably the only reasons you guys are still operating is 1) you appear to be based in Europe, and 2) you are, like CIB argues, insignificant. And I suppose with that attitude, your player base won't advance beyond what it is right now, because every other player feels like the admins have it in for them, and probably then some.

These people behave because they respect the moderation team, not fear them. Big difference. It's thanks to us they aren't being terrorized by bullies and trolls all the time.
EVERY game on BYOND is insignificant; BYOND itself is insignificant. BYOND is a collection of games made by people who develop these game in their spare time, as a hobby. You will not find big MMORPGs with hundreds or thousand of players online on BYOND. Never ever.
You should realize that our average of 50 to 60 online players at busy times, is one of the larger online player counts on BYOND. Most of the games on BYOND never get more than 20 online players. We never had the intention of evolving into a big, full-scale MMORPG, and we never will have that intention in the future, either.

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PostSubject: Re: Suggestion: mod elections   Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:27 pm

I've seen evidence to the contrary. But if you keep saying it maybe it will come true. Razz

But I'm done, so bye.

Actually I'd better not because I still need to do opinion research. So I'll be sticking around a while longer.
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PostSubject: Re: Suggestion: mod elections   Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:24 pm

lordgalbalan,

First:

Nielz wrote:

These people behave because they respect the moderation team, not fear them. Big difference. It's thanks to us they aren't being terrorized by bullies and trolls all the time.
EVERY game on BYOND is insignificant; BYOND itself is insignificant. BYOND is a collection of games made by people who develop these game in their spare time, as a hobby. You will not find big MMORPGs with hundreds or thousand of players online on BYOND. Never ever.
You should realize that our average of 50 to 60 online players at busy times, is one of the larger online player counts on BYOND. Most of the games on BYOND never get more than 20 online players. We never had the intention of evolving into a big, full-scale MMORPG, and we never will have that intention in the future, either.

^ All of this. ^

Second:

CIB wrote:

FFL is a dictatorship. It only allows those people who get along with the current community. New ideas, incompatible mentalities, will be largely ignored, or, if getting to a point where they become annoying to regular members, punished.

I'd put FFL nearer to a monarchy than a complete dictatorship. Andrew typically isn't opposed to good ideas when they're put forth in a logically sound and reasonable manner. Player suggestions sometimes make it into the game, and staff suggestions regularly do.

Third:

Aside from the rantastical tangent this thread went on, the idea that was offered (mod elections) is simply too much responsibility to give to the average FFLer. Consider that the average person playing FFL needs their hand held through nearly the whole goddamn game, despite the entire thing more or less being handed to them. They're too stupid to follow a linear path, what could possibly make you think they're thoughtful or intelligent enough to elect anybody to a position of staff power?

The whole idea behind democratic government is for elected officials to represent the opinions and choices of their constituents. In the case of FFL, the vast majority of the constituents are criminally stupid. If you want to see what happens when you give authority to the players, go take a look at LunaoftheMoon's FFL rip next time she puts it up. You'll quickly observe that the game instantly loses what little entertainment value it has.

Now, as far as questioning your punishment. I agree that FFL currently has no easy way for its users to appeal staff-given punishments. But let's face it, typically those punishments are short-lived and deserved. In the case of a permanent mute however there isn't a whole lot you can do aside from make a posting on the forum. For the record, setting your name to a seemingly random string of letters and numbers then running back and forth over top of an admin is not a good way to get attention. It's a good way to be annoying.

Your key (Tcaudilllg) has been unmuted. For now. Get my attention next time you're online and I'll decide whether or not you'll stay that way.

- Dolph
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PostSubject: Re: Suggestion: mod elections   Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:36 pm

I pick the staff based on 3 things.

1. Secret factors which I do not discuss openly, I rarely discuss them even with other staff members.
2. I do have to like them, it's true, if I don't like them then there is an issue that can't be overlooked. If I have a problem with them then there is no chance of them working for me.
3. Other staff have to like them. Or atleast not have issues with them. That way we don't have problems amongst the staff.

Other then that. All my lovely friends have covered every point I'd probably have had made myself. Feel free to continue this conversation, I hope you think before you reply.

Andrew.

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PostSubject: Re: Suggestion: mod elections   Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:55 pm

King Flapjack wrote:

The whole idea behind democratic government is for elected officials to represent the opinions and choices of their constituents. In the case of FFL, the vast majority of the constituents are criminally stupid.

And how exactly is that different from real life? Wink

I could actually see a point to dictatorship/monarchy in real life, with a good ruler it'd be way better than what we have. I do think that the "regular community" of FFL(those who stay here for a long time) would be a lot more suited to do elections than that guy from your neighbourhood.
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PostSubject: Re: Suggestion: mod elections   Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:23 pm

My country, Belgium, is a monarchy ruled by a king and a queen. Haha...
But we have a democratic parliament, too.

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PostSubject: Re: Suggestion: mod elections   Mon Oct 25, 2010 5:48 pm

King Flapjack wrote:
lordgalbalan,

First:

Nielz wrote:

These people behave because they respect the moderation team, not fear them. Big difference. It's thanks to us they aren't being terrorized by bullies and trolls all the time.
EVERY game on BYOND is insignificant; BYOND itself is insignificant. BYOND is a collection of games made by people who develop these game in their spare time, as a hobby. You will not find big MMORPGs with hundreds or thousand of players online on BYOND. Never ever.
You should realize that our average of 50 to 60 online players at busy times, is one of the larger online player counts on BYOND. Most of the games on BYOND never get more than 20 online players. We never had the intention of evolving into a big, full-scale MMORPG, and we never will have that intention in the future, either.

^ All of this. ^

Second:

CIB wrote:

FFL is a dictatorship. It only allows those people who get along with the current community. New ideas, incompatible mentalities, will be largely ignored, or, if getting to a point where they become annoying to regular members, punished.

I'd put FFL nearer to a monarchy than a complete dictatorship. Andrew typically isn't opposed to good ideas when they're put forth in a logically sound and reasonable manner. Player suggestions sometimes make it into the game, and staff suggestions regularly do.

Third:

Aside from the rantastical tangent this thread went on, the idea that was offered (mod elections) is simply too much responsibility to give to the average FFLer. Consider that the average person playing FFL needs their hand held through nearly the whole goddamn game, despite the entire thing more or less being handed to them. They're too stupid to follow a linear path, what could possibly make you think they're thoughtful or intelligent enough to elect anybody to a position of staff power?

The whole idea behind democratic government is for elected officials to represent the opinions and choices of their constituents. In the case of FFL, the vast majority of the constituents are criminally stupid. If you want to see what happens when you give authority to the players, go take a look at LunaoftheMoon's FFL rip next time she puts it up. You'll quickly observe that the game instantly loses what little entertainment value it has.

Now, as far as questioning your punishment. I agree that FFL currently has no easy way for its users to appeal staff-given punishments. But let's face it, typically those punishments are short-lived and deserved. In the case of a permanent mute however there isn't a whole lot you can do aside from make a posting on the forum. For the record, setting your name to a seemingly random string of letters and numbers then running back and forth over top of an admin is not a good way to get attention. It's a good way to be annoying.

Your key (Tcaudilllg) has been unmuted. For now. Get my attention next time you're online and I'll decide whether or not you'll stay that way.

- Dolph


Pardon for quoting the whole thing, but I want to say, "I agree completely." You have players getting to Fabul, asking where to go next, being told to talk to the King, getting the orb, and then asking where to go next, when the king outright tells you what the orb's essence is for? "Too stupid to follow a linear path" about sums it up nicely, and if I'm scared of such people voting in a game, I fear for the future of my country! (Yes, I've been asking for help a lot lately, but that's because my fiend is dead in 2 hits, not because I'm clinically incapable of talking to an NPC.)

Not to mention, this isn't some internet forum where active members are mods. Look at the majority of MMOs. Does WoW have player elected GMs? Heck no, they're paid company employees! FFL may be a small community, but that's not to say the staff doesn't have their hands full from time to time, with the testing of new ideas (such as the great rebalance, where suddenly Warrior classes had less strength than Wisdom), making animations (I must say, I was gone for a bit and came back to see a lot of them added, nice work!) and of course, keeping the chat in order. The FFL staff are highly underappreciated for all their hard work, and I think they deserve a standing ovation for putting up with (and of course, solving) not only with the problems of players, but the players who are problems all on their own.


You may wonder why "I'm taking their side." The simple fact of the matter is that there's only one real side: common sense. If Dolph sees a muted player running around over him, he'll be like "wtf is this guy doing, is he trying to be annoying?" Harassment is against the rules, which you'd know if you read them. Why not just use the forums right away like a mature civilized individual rather than let it come down to this?
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PostSubject: Re: Suggestion: mod elections   Mon Oct 25, 2010 5:53 pm

Dolph's personality somehow always reminds me of Docter House, from House MD. cyclops

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